(14:31:44) Grier: so what do elves eat?
(14:32:03) svarogteuse: its long and complecated.
(14:32:40) svarogteuse: I'm looking to see if its in a file, i think its all on paper though.
(14:33:58) Grier: ok
(14:36:06) svarogteuse: nope on paper. Ok basically elves live in managed oak forests. Like East coast of North america size. Oak trees have been domesticated. We havnt done that because of life span issue but elves, outliving the oaks can do that. Acorn production is a little increased over our best oaks (6000lbs/acre/year). Acorns can be collected, and stored long term, ground for flour like substance. This provides the primary source of food.
(14:37:40) Grier: high and diversified nutient density. Makes since.
(14:38:08) Grier: so they ues acorn flour as there mainstay.
(14:38:16) svarogteuse: Thinning out the oaks so they grow a large crown increase acorn production, this produces a lot of dead wood. Used for forest floor mushroom (shiitake, stropharia and morels) cultivation. Our button mushrooms can get 5.75lbs/acre so the elves should be able to match that.
(14:39:06) svarogteuse: Acorns provide a good protein source. As well as fats and oils. There were tribes in californina getting over half thier diet from acorns.
(14:39:23) Grier: *nods*
(14:39:46) Grier: so they are primarly an agricultural society?
(14:41:18) svarogteuse: Animals. gots to have them. Elves maintain a chicken like bird that lives in trees not the on the ground. Hibernates in winter (see poorwill) Eats catawba worms. Catawba worms eat Catawba trees exclusivly, in huge masses. They keep hutches raied in the trees and move them from tree to tree at night when all the worms are eaten.
(14:42:03) svarogteuse: yea agricultural. Got to be for the tech levels unless they get out of hand.
(14:42:33) Grier: no large herd animals? of course they don't make since for the setting... but they could simi. domesticate deer and there relitives
(14:43:13) svarogteuse: they maintain pigs. pigs will eat anything all over the forest. including the mushrooms, thats a problem but the pig i was using was based off an extinct peccary that lived in caves so it would go home at night.
(14:44:00) svarogteuse: can't domesticate deer. they respond by flight and will hurt themselves by trying to run. got to domesticate herd animals that have a pecking order.
(14:44:29) svarogteuse: also have dogs. some dogs raised w pigs, kind of like a sheep dog.
(14:44:54) Grier: *nods*
(14:47:57) svarogteuse: They also raise a tuber plant kind of like a potato. vine climbs oak trees for light. Leaves in fall and winter. when most the oak leaves are down. give the elven forest that perpetual leafy look. tubers harvested in summer I think. Just dig them up leaving the main root.
(14:48:36) Grier: most tubers can be harvested twice a year.
(14:48:39) Grier: mid summer and late
(14:48:40) svarogteuse: that leaves them without a large pack/war animal. something i havnt resolved yet.
(14:49:32) svarogteuse: yea but these can only grow when the oaks have shed the leaves. Kind of reverse cycle from the oaks.
(14:50:02) svarogteuse: old oaks can be hollowed out and used for be hives.
(14:50:15) svarogteuse: bee hives. for the oak and tuber flowers.
(14:50:58) Grier: Elves are naturaly resistant to desiese. And they are extreamly long lived. this places most of there worries in the realm of accident and violence. that could explain there societal focus on life and peace as high virtues.
(14:51:02) svarogteuse: Elven rangers are really farmers. Managing the forest, clearing out destructive animals/plants.
(14:51:10) Grier: sorry ... had a mental drift
(14:51:23) Grier: *nods*
(14:51:33) Grier: foresters with an agricultural bend of mind
(14:52:20) svarogteuse: oh and some sort of weasels to eat the squirells in the acorn storage bins.
(14:52:55) Grier: why weasels and not cats?
(14:55:09) svarogteuse: casue weasel like creatures are found in the North American forests where I was basing this. Cats arnt. They are African. Weasels were used all over the N. Med basin before cats. the egyptians kept cats a state secret for a while. trying to keep them from spreading to thier enemies.
(14:56:19) Grier: hmm ther are cats in the southern and middle applachians... and around the catskill mountains I think... Small bobcat are all over eastern mountain ranges.
(14:56:38) Grier: but not in the forest... hmm didn't know that
(14:57:03) Grier: ok weasles it is then
(14:57:39) svarogteuse: the setting i was working with was Elves evolved civilization between the last 2 ice ages, not after the end of the last one like us. that gives them 15,000 years of extra time. But only in N.A. then spread from there. Gives them access to a few extinct species and isolates them from developing humans on the Africa-Eurasia landmass. 1st contact w humans about 11,000 years ago as the cross the bearing strights and get stopped cold by the elves in the forests though roam the plains freely.
(14:58:23) svarogteuse: bobcats are too big. to agressive to be domesticated. tends to bite, hard.
(14:58:23) Grier: ok makes since.
(14:59:19) svarogteuse: guns germs and steel had a great section on what could and couldnt be domesticated and why. basically everything that can really be domesticated has been by ancient man.
(15:00:01) Grier: ok. Have you just covered food sources or have you moved on to the basic technology development as well?
(15:00:35) svarogteuse: just doing food right now. technology is a problem. I dont want them to use a lot of fire. cuts down to many trees.
(15:01:09) svarogteuse: they have to have iron, otherwise the humans will stomp thier asses bad.
(15:01:10) Grier: true... and alot of our need for it they don't have
(15:02:05) svarogteuse: fire may be the only magic they have thats really apparent. something that doesnt consume the wood but produces heat. maybe draws out the lifeforce from the tree kind of thing then the tree has to heal.
(15:02:06) Grier: for instance... if we use tolkien as our source for the basics of what elves can and can't do... they are highly temperature resistant and disease resistant
(15:03:11) Grier: they see exceptionaly well in very little light
(15:03:26) Grier: they may have mastered fire like any other race but use it very little
(15:04:02) svarogteuse: definatly temp resistant. only appear to be disease resistant. they have had 15,000 years of dealing w animals to develop lots of immunities we dont have. but they need the animals to develop diseases togive back to the humans
(15:05:48) svarogteuse: they have mastered fire, just dont use it much. they have a better source.
(15:05:49) Grier: well considering ther life span they must have an exceptionally efficient physiology. Don't produce much fat... make use of almost all of there nutients in every meal.
(15:06:47) Grier: suggest a high motablism which may be there resource for cold reistance... sort of a super motablism that can raise to balence the effects of the enviorment
(15:08:23) Grier: perhaps magics that alow heat collection with out fire production... seem to be a sourceless fire just drawn from the inviorment... creats and area temperature drop but if done over enough area it woudl hardly be noticeable
(15:11:33) svarogteuse: working brb
(15:24:10) svarogteuse: ok back
(15:25:03) svarogteuse: causing a temperature drop in the environment could be good. I was thinking part of the reason the elves havnt adanced further is they they think they are part of the cause of the ice age
(15:35:33) Grier: I would think that during the era before other races came on the scene they woudl have expanded some but very slowly... as they learn to move that certain somthing out of their forest into the enviourment right next door. then the next.... that would take hundreds of years though
(15:41:25) svarogteuse: I think they exapnded to the equivelent forests first. California, europe areas. treating the intervening oceans/land masses the same as we treated the ocaens. They will do a little expansion into nearby non-oak forests, and some environment change. making thier forest grow whereever possible.
(15:41:48) Grier: the encroachment of other races would be catastrophy.... This herb, mineral, the spice, vitiaman wouldn't be native to that envirment and woudl be found there either in hot house conditions or by trade with the mother land. \
(15:42:40) Grier: that makes since.... they would move into an enviourment that would support this element first.. but they are the earliest race to develope yes? they would have time to move it into other areas before man or dwarf came along to screw it up.
(15:44:12) svarogteuse: yea definatly the first. they would only have to worry about encroachment on marginal lands. they would still be the masters in their own forests. 15,000 years of warfare teaches you a lot. Problem would be eventaully the humans out breed you.
(15:45:01) svarogteuse: dwarves are the next race but even more of a problem. Can't grow enough food underground. Have to have food above/below at the same time.
(15:45:59) svarogteuse: elven dwarf conflict is really nasty. Dwarves cutting down trees for fuel is the equivelent of burning the enemies fields.
(15:46:11) svarogteuse: elves get really pissed about that.
(15:46:28) Grier: a tactic that elves wouldn't even consider concidering how dependent they are on them
(15:46:42) Grier: even in an inter elven conflict the trees would be held sacred.
(15:46:53) Grier: that would be a cornerstone of there religious belief
(15:47:10) svarogteuse: yea. and the dwarves wouldnt even relize they done it and dont understand why the elves are pissed about a few hundred acres fo forest going down.
(15:47:39) Grier: hmm wouldn't dwarves start as a hunting culture if there isn't enough produce to go around.
(15:47:56) Grier: also ther body types suggest cold weather.
(15:48:13) svarogteuse: the elves keep a lot of thier food production secret. its obvious to them but the relize quickly that if the enemy doesnt know the forest is food they wont destryo it outright.
(15:48:19) Grier: Mythicaly they show up first in scandanavia.
(15:48:54) Grier: makes since. Also adds to the mystique which I am sure they have been smart of to make use of in diplomacy and trade
(15:49:03) Grier: the elves that is
(15:49:21) svarogteuse: dwarves as hunter-gatherers isnt a problem, wandering the world, its getting them past that stage without them becoming wheat farmers.
(15:52:26) Grier: how about moving them into being a natural trades folk... discover metals and there secrets early on and at first use them to be efficient warrior/hunters but then with the discovery/advent of trade they become as the phonicians of the north.
(15:53:06) Grier: and then keep ing that secret for awhile longer than most races or peoples they encounter move on to being early manufactures.
(15:53:27) svarogteuse: works but they end up dependant on the other societies. almost parisites. no good mtn strongholds.
(15:54:03) Grier: dominate other races for acricultural slaves.
(15:54:08) svarogteuse: its the large pop centers of dwarves thats hard to feed. cant conduct a good war against the elves or the orcs with citdels.
(15:54:10) Grier: goblins mabe
(15:54:42) Grier: goblins mythical start as forest creatures... demunitive nasty elves realy
(15:54:48) svarogteuse: enslavement works. though about making them a very caste based society. Priests, Warriors, Craftspeople and the untouchables: farmers.
(15:55:11) svarogteuse: Farmers grow shit in the valleys around the strong holds and are the first shut out during a seige.
(15:55:32) Grier: makes them a bit phonicean and abit spartan.
(15:55:33) svarogteuse: some of them go on to be the traders all over the world but still looked down on.
(15:56:10) Grier: fantasy liturature has long had castes of dwarves.
(15:56:15) svarogteuse: yea the spartans are a good model. Helots in the fields and everything revolves around keeping them there.
(15:56:38) svarogteuse: including foreign wars, to make sure the war isnt at home.
(15:56:49) Grier: and entire racial splits based on amount of enteraction with outside wourld
(15:56:51) Grier: world
(15:58:12) Grier: that would also explain why goblins are such a base race.
(15:58:32) Grier: breed for slavery for generations before they escaped back into the world
(15:59:25) Grier: creates a cultural feeling of worthlessness and a great hatred for dwarves and any who they saw dealing with them as near equals
(15:59:33) svarogteuse: they get no tech. no food base to generate good populations. in good years they breed like rabbits, destroy the local environment and rampage around looking for food till they starve off.
(16:00:58) Grier: keep being kicked out of land they can't defend as others want it till they are put into bad lands, mountains with little metals, abandoned dwarf tunnels
(16:01:51) Grier: they woudl be smith crafty because of what they learned under dwarven thumb...but that would just be the basics and they would have very little resources with wich to practice it.
(16:02:24) Grier: also they would be perfect patsies for the orcs later when there agressions lead them against the other races
(16:03:28) svarogteuse: yup. yea learned as slave dwarven labor, farming too but since thier lands are marginal can't expand pop long enough to do anything. Every so often you get a few hundred good years for them, like the middle ages for the scandanavians. They essentailly go viking trying to expand but get pushed back later.
(16:04:08) svarogteuse: yea dwarves drive orcs and goblins ahead of their armies as cannon fodder against elves and humans.
(16:06:36) Grier: I always saw orcs like monguls.
(16:06:50) Grier: in there own lands they have civilazation even if it is brutal
(16:07:03) Grier: it is there raiders that we see
(16:07:10) svarogteuse: im probably gonna blend a lot of the goblins togeather. just to many kinds of them to make sense.
(16:07:41) svarogteuse: orcs are probably goblins who got a lucky place to live, get bigger, stronger more organized.
(16:08:23) Grier: makes since as well. wandered far enough away that they get a good five hundred year toe hold to call a place there own.
(16:09:13) svarogteuse: yea no one else wants it but its better than the swamp you came from and at least you dont get raided evey year for slaves.
(16:10:26) Grier: since all they know is slavery they would be a slave owning culture as well... but with out the dwarven resource of organization. they will treat them less like the greeks and romans treated there slaves. Like a mix of people and property and more like slaves were treated in the american south. Like valuable but comtempted property.
(16:12:38) svarogteuse: dwarves too. even the lower castes treat goblins like black slaves, not the roman/greek type. Thats for higher castes captured in battle w other citidels. Who better to teach your children than a former general from somewhere else
(16:13:08) Grier: ok makes since.
(16:13:16) Grier: so if you can'
(16:13:52) Grier: can't beat the dwarves in a few battles then your race and culture will not be respected.
(16:13:57) svarogteuse: goblin slaves would have 0 rights, dwarf slaves would be able to buy freedom and set up shop, as long as they still follow caste rules. Slavery doesnt take away caste just makes you someone elses property for a while
(16:14:15) Grier: *nods*
(16:15:18) svarogteuse: racial prejudice would keep leves and humans from being mas volume slaves. obviously goblins are better workers.... and since thier out of the caste system cant be house slaves either.
(16:17:14) Grier: solves the dwarven food problem pretty good
(16:18:30) svarogteuse: as long as they have control of some surface area and protected valleys. but its real tenuous against a real empires resources
(16:19:07) Grier: placement.
(16:19:44) Grier: the european north didn't get conquered by empire
(16:21:08) Grier: it was christioan converted eventualy which brought it culturaly in line with the rest of europe but never was conqured
(16:22:17) Grier: alot of geothermal activity to heat a growing area enough to extend the growing area on harty crops for almost an average european growing season
(16:22:43) Grier: and dwarves arn't known for there diversified culinary arts
(16:23:12) svarogteuse: a few areas, like the basques or switzerland but even they any determined enemy like Rome get you. The north was inhospitable for the empires until new technology was developed. All the great empires were mediteranian climate until after the fall of rome. you got new techs in the dark ages, water wheels, yokes, new plows which made more marginal lands farmable. Even then they heyday of the north was during a climate shift which made it warmer. Once it got colder again 1500s+ they stagnated and lost out to more southern empires. still wernt conquerd but definatly didnt have the impact England or France did
(16:24:07) svarogteuse: today we have gruel. tomarrow we have day old gruel. and saturday we have gruel mixed w 2 day old gruel.
(16:24:36) Grier: true but niether would dwarves... they are isolationist. It is part of there culture but maybe part of it out of ther culture because they don't have any other choice
(16:25:12) Grier: but it is ok that we have no contact with the outside and people don't want to come here... that is how the Gods like it.
(16:25:56) svarogteuse: they world is definatly head to the humans. They will eventaully push everyone else out of lands they want islotate them into small populations and breed them out of existance.
(16:26:59) Grier: inter breed with the so we get the shawns and jacksons of the world *grins*
(16:27:41) svarogteuse: nope no interbreeding. completly differnet genus. no half elves either.
(16:29:37) Grier: ok
(16:30:01) Grier: guess there is know explaining how wus jackson is then
(16:30:56) svarogteuse: i was going w a very evolutionary world. little magic. jackson is obviously an exception some sort of genetic/magical experiment
(16:31:08) Grier: lol
(16:35:09) Grier: what other races you have in mind for this endevor?
(16:37:13) svarogteuse: i was thinking of a semi-aquatic human offshoot. Not water breathers more like a human version of otters. Webbed hands and feet, more streamlined lives on the coasts never inland except on large rivers or lakes. There is thier wacko evolutionary theory that man went thorugh an aquatic phase rather than a savannah phase of evolution. Look up Aquatic Ape.
(16:38:02) svarogteuse: neanderthals may actually be the goblins. cant get bright enough to compete but dont die off in this world.
(16:38:04) Grier: will do
(16:38:44) svarogteuse: gives the elves and dwarves more contempt for modern humans. they can point and say look at your cousin aint he dumb
(16:39:17) Grier: wow... what a good way to piss us off
(16:39:45) Grier: humans are a terribley grouchy race. Giveing to breaking shit now and worring how we will survive it later
(16:41:09) svarogteuse: just about anything else w intelligence has to go away. almost all giantcarnivores (ie dragons). I'm going to bring some back w the gods. but not to many. Gets to be much more Greek like world. There is 1 chimera and it was created to punish X rather than a breeding pop spread out around the world.
(16:41:54) Grier: makes since
(16:42:26) Grier: that which can't reasonable survive in the world is here through special help or attentiopno of a greater power
(16:43:00) svarogteuse: There may be some cross over from an alternate deminson type place. Maybe an invasion of Mind Flayers bringing thier culture and creatures but thats going to be localized to the spot they invaded.
(16:43:49) svarogteuse: yea dragons eat too much to be natrual. having them be from Fafnir like sources is ok but not laying eggs and breeding.
(16:44:47) svarogteuse: oh a lot of Plietocene creatures may be left, sloths, wolly rhino, mammoths. they elves would have stopped the humans from having such an impact on them particualry in the Americas.
(16:45:17) Grier: tolkein meats clan of the cave bear... *grins*
(16:45:31) svarogteuse: yea.
(16:48:51) svarogteuse: god intervention is minor. they will do things like create the races (from existing creatures) but no Greyhawk like god wars going on all over the place.
(16:49:24) Grier: good
(16:49:43) Grier: god make it very difficult to develope a rational campaign world
(16:49:51) Grier: I like setting limiations on them.
(16:50:21) Grier: They have there jobs and can do much with in that seting but are limited outside of that
(16:51:42) svarogteuse: very much make it difficult. Magic limited too. The elves do things w living things, they dwarves w items, chants, fire and stone but nothing flashy much more natrualistic. Have to have human mages but I think they need s ource for power. Dark sun preserver/defiler kind.
(16:52:57) svarogteuse: Elves can draw power out of life, but with limits before it dies. Dwarves out of fire or rock, before it consumes itself or turns to dust.
(16:53:12) Grier: that works well... that would make the humans (the most ambitious of races) the great priest mages
(16:53:30) Grier: going to the Powers/Gods to find more power
(16:54:12) Grier: it would be through humans that demons would inter the world
(16:54:13) svarogteuse: yea looking to the gods for everyting. and thee gods feeding of it but worried about an arms race amounst themselves at the same time. competing for worshipers amoung the humans
(16:54:40) Grier: so the humans un balence the gods.
(16:55:22) svarogteuse: deamons are just evil servants of the evil gods.
(16:55:53) Grier: that makes since but they are evil. that means they will seek to elivate them selves even at the expence of ther masters
(16:56:25) svarogteuse: yea they unbalance things, but since each human god gets his power from human worshippers they compete w each other more than agains tthe other races gods. keeping the humans down but at the same time trying not to wreck havoc since you want those worshippers.
(16:56:26) Grier: also humans can learn to steal power from these lesser spirits.
(16:57:00) Grier: the politics of the divine
(16:57:12) svarogteuse: nope evil can serve just like angels. No real creative thought. completly subservient to the will of the master.
(16:58:16) svarogteuse: or demons are like the gods dogs. they just cant compete w a god.
(16:58:33) Grier: I like the second view betterr
(16:58:48) Grier: would make for a less stable envirment but a better game
(16:58:48) svarogteuse: and hang around hoping for a good work or a bone cause the god is obviously the pack leader.
(16:58:55) svarogteuse: i think i do too.
(17:00:02) Grier: Damn this woman *grins*
(17:00:18) Grier: every time I turn around the air is turned off
(17:00:55) svarogteuse: you have the air on?
(17:01:04) Grier: yes
(17:01:28) svarogteuse: i only turned it on cause the landlord complained i had the windows open during all that rain and they thought it was going to rain inside the house.
(17:02:00) Grier: well I know you like it warmer.. as does carla but it makes me feel like I am melting
(17:06:42) svarogteuse: they are trying to make it warmer in here. its only 77 now. they are trying to freeze me out.